Dedicated Server Software Issues

[Farmer_Bob]

Bassaddict, I have a huge amount of respect for you. You are a very experienced and kind person who does provide a very necessary service here on this forum so I would hate for us to fall out over this, BUT.....

I work for myself and by myself (occasionally hiring a couple of guys to help me out) I have a wife and two children to look after, a house to maintain and a mortgage to pay. I am disabled and a wheelchair user so making money is even more important to me than most. If I don't earn money my family don't eat but I still can not agree with the way Giants are conducting their business.

Charging us for a second game license as well as the server software is being just to greedy (in my humble opinion). I know that you are fully aware that other independent game makers give server software away free of charge to license holders and you certainly don't need a second game (software or license) to use the server.

In these times of financial downturn where many companies are going broke and closing their doors it is imperative to show customers "good will" and to entice them back again and again. I do this by offering free services to returning customers and being nice to them when they want or need some advice or help. Telling a customer that it is their own fault for not understanding the conditions of the service and that they aren't getting their money back is NOT showing good will or that they even care about their customers!

If I was the OP I doubt that I would ever buy anything else from Giants where-as if Giants had said "Okay, we will refund you the cost of the license" I would be delighted and have a lot of faith to buy other products or services from Giants in future.

Giants received a huge amount in donations to fund this project so it is not like they have to re-coup any costs or are worried about it not being a success. The only thing that will bring down Giants is their own attitude to its customers.

I will, of course, continue to play FS2013 but I will never EVER buy anything else from Giants. There is a huge fan base of people who give up their free time to make mods for this game and they never earn a penny from it. THAT is good will and caring for the community.

I'm now done with this topic and won't be returning here. I simply can not understand why these people are so small minded and greedy.

[Decker_MMIV]

[...] Yes you would need the Server Software plus one Farming Sim extra. But Running the Server Software on your PC is not what it is intended for and has no benefit, actually it would be worse because you would then run 2 Games on one PC (Host and Client) [...]

Hmm. That information there, was not something I expected with regards to the Dedicated Server Software.

I had hoped to buy and use the Dedicated Server Software with its own unique license-key (one that works with Steam too), and run it on the same computer as the FS2013 GUI application (client), to help me develop and test multiplayer mods more easily.

[Ghost]

For 30 bucks, you get a handful of scripts that will access a game that cost 25 bucks. For 30 bucks you are told it's a stand alone server, when it isn't. The stand alone server is not even a server at all. This is why I said it is a rip off of the communities money. Those that donated the 25 grand for a stand alone server, and received a handful of scripts that do not equate to being a server, were ripped off. You got my 30 bucks, not the first time I spent money on something that doesn't work as intended. But lesson learned. I'm a big game supporter, and have no problems spending money on games I really enjoy. I may have just spent my last cash on your games. That is how economy works, you leave people feeling they were ripped off, and they stop spending money on your products.

[internalfyre]

For 30 bucks, you get a handful of scripts that will access a game that cost 25 bucks. For 30 bucks you are told it's a stand alone server, when it isn't. The stand alone server is not even a server at all. This is why I said it is a rip off of the communities money. Those that donated the 25 grand for a stand alone server, and received a handful of scripts that do not equate to being a server, were ripped off. You got my 30 bucks, not the first time I spent money on something that doesn't work as intended. But lesson learned. I'm a big game supporter, and have no problems spending money on games I really enjoy. I may have just spent my last cash on your games. That is how economy works, you leave people feeling they were ripped off, and they stop spending money on your products.

Yes, that is where I found it mighty misleading. GEnerally when it is said that this software is a "Standalone" piece of software, you figure hey, it doesnt need anything else to run. But in this case it is just worded poorly.

Now yes, I understand GIANT is in serious need of cash most likely, and again I love their games. It is understandable if they have developer/publisher issues (which in light of all this dedi server software problems) seems like they made some pretty poor choices in regards to their game development. Again, paying for another instance of the game is generally unheard of in any type of dedicated server usage. Could you imagine if CounterStrike server hosters had to pay for each and every "Server" they sold. That would be an astronomical cost, and therefore there would be absolutely no one to host the servers, because there is no profit in it.

I read up in one of M.A.R.C.'s previous posts that they are trying to get some hosting companies in the US on board. Well I can figure why they havent had any volunteers, it probably has to do with licensing issues. Generally for dedicated hosting providers its nothing to setup server deployment etc, its just extra cash in their pockets. But the way that this software has been coded/developed it sounds like it would be a huge pain in the ass to sell. So personally if I were a re-seller for game servers, I would be out completely because the profit margin and/or the hassle of hosting/maintaining the servers sounds like way too much hassle. Oh lets not forget to mention a WINDOWS OS is required, that in my mind would be another serious freakin deal breaker. Why do you think SO MANY servers are run on LINUX/UNIX based systems? Because of resources! The more a hoster can squeeze out of a box the better, with hosting windows based boxes it freakin eats up resources. That is an issue on a whole nother level for a provider!

I just hope in future releases of their games they can get their act together and come out with something proper.

Note: Above paragraph is SPECULATION, dont take anything said as fact.

EDIT: I also just wanted to say, the specific details about the dedi software is horrible. Firstly the requirements are buried within a whole bunch of other information. Second is that there is no other information about the server software, for example....how many farms can I host with a single license?

[Ghost]

The lack of interest from the company is expected. I honestly can't figure out why those that donated the money for the server, have not pressed them about the end product. I am sure there are some that donated far more than what I lost on the deal.

[Stegei]

If you think, hosting companies don't pay server licenses for other games, you're wrong.. For most games, they actually pay for each server the run.

We know, that the current licensing situation is not ideal. We would love to create a single package for a decent price. But we mainly have three problems:
1. Since the game is exclusively licensed to other partners, like Astragon and Focus Home Interactive, we are not allowed to give out licenses of the game for any price we like.
2. We have no special server-only game version. Thus if we would give out server licenses of the game for free or a low price, why would anybody continue to pay for the game? However creating a server-only game version is quite time consuming and also more expensive to maintain.
3. We can't give out the Dedicated Server Software for free, due to the Crowd-Funding project where one was able to get a license for 15 Euros instead of 25. This funding project was necessary to partially finance the development of the server version. We were willing to invest some money or our side, however not the full amount (the actually development did cost about 3 times more than what we did raise in the funding project), especially with the uncertainty of the demand by the players. With this funding project, we were able to get both in one action.


The 25 Euros for the Dedicated Server Software do not only cover the development costs of the Dedicated Server Software itself (Webserver to manage the game), but also all the changes we made to the game itself to make a GUI-less server usable. E.g. the possibility to manage a dedicated server setting by the client software (e.g. change client permission etc.).

Ghost, where do we tell you that the Dedicated Server Software is a standalone game? At the buy page, it is very clearly stated that it does not include the game and a separate game license is required.

Regarding the hosting companies. It's not that there is any problems with licensing etc. It's really just that they don't know the game yet, and we need to convince them that it might be a great selling server and it worth spending the time to set the system up to support it.

[internalfyre]

Thanks for more details on the project Stegei. I can understand from your perspective. I definitely think
that dedicated servers was a brilliant thing to do, as really any multiplayer game can benefit it. I do know that
server companies pay fees etc to the game developers etc and that can be a real tough thing to get through. The biggest issue as
you had stated is would the players be interested in it, in return you gotta ask...does it really benefit the players!

Creating this thread I had no intention of instigating a flame war, but I think that many people have made their points.

I hope that in the future GIANTS can come up with a better solution to the multiplayer server issue (definitely making progress
by coming out with the basis of the software!) and hopefully the companies you are partnered with can come to an agreement as well.

If I may make a couple more suggestions, I think it would definitely be a good idea to get some more input from the community in regards
to what they want to see from the dedicated server software. I know that it can be tough to implement community ideas but at the same time
it can add tremendous progress to the development of a game/product.

In regards to the above, there are ways to get consumers ideas and then put them out to the public which would allow players to upvote those features and then
game developers can determine what players really want to see and then decide whether it would be possible to implement. Again that can create many
issues alongside it, mainly being that if something gets upvoted then it is determined it cannot be implemented then it can be troublesome, but the possibilities
are endless because the more people you have creating ideas for games/products the more of a chance that it can really enrich the product an idea is for.
I know I definitely have some ideas of ways that you could improve the dedicated software dramatically.

Really in the end its all about finding a balance between keeping the players happy (I know next to impossible usually!) and keeping your profit margins up (important too!).

Anyways, lowpinggameservers finally got their San Jose, CA gameservers back up for FS 2013 so I am off to play on the one I ordered haha!

[Farmer_Bob]

Ghost, where do we tell you that the Dedicated Server Software is a standalone game? At the buy page, it is very clearly stated that it does not include the game and a separate game license is required.

This is a link to your own web site DLC page :- A standalone software for persistent online farming worlds! ..... http://www.farming-simulator.com/dlc.php?lang=en

In my honest opinion, standalone software says that this is all you need to play the game.

Edit

This is not a game! - A physical server and a Farming Simulator 2013 license (sold separately) are required to use this software! The Steam version can't be used to run a dedicated server.

This tells me that I need a license to use this server, it DOESN'T tell me I need a second license to play. I have a license, I play the game for hours and hours every day. I personally think that Giants worded it this way to cause people to buy the software believing that was all they needed to spend. Now when people are complaining about it what do Giants do? They turn their backs and refuse to accept that they are wrong.

[internalfyre]

Farmer_Bob, I was refunded within 24 hours when I realised that it was not exactly what I thought it was. Of course the confusion/issues could have been resolved by making the info a bit more clear (Atleast for us English users!). But yes, I saw that too and when I see dedicated server and "Standalone" software...I dont think "Oh im going to need a game key for this!".

[Farmer_Bob]

Thank you for the info Internalfyre, I've updated my post.

[MrUnSavory]

I like the way bassaddict defends this as some kind of good business move. First, they got idiots to pay for them to do their work to create a dedicated server (something that should have come with the game to start with), then they get idiots to shell out another $60.00 for a dedicated server and another copy of a game they already own. Are you people retarded? they didn't get the net code correct in the original game so now you think they are smart enough to make dedicated server software that will work properly?

Giants has officially tied with Electronic Arts as one of the worst gaming companies to ever exist. They could care less about a gaming community and are more worried about *censored* as much of your hard earned cash out of your wallet as they can for an inferior product. I have bought the last 2 versions of this product and will NOT support Giants any longer. They create a very poor product based on an inferior game engine and can't even write proper net code.

Good luck Giants, you will not be getting any more money from me and I will warn all friends and others away from your products.

And to the fan boys that this pi** off, your parents raised idiots if you think this is good business practice.

[internalfyre]

Yes you are right MrUnSavory, in many eyes it can be seen as a poor choice to be made. Although you do need to see it from another perspective, it definitely isnt cheap to develop a video game. Although there are many things they could have done better, and they definitely do with reconstructing how multiplayer is handled as right now it definitely doesn't feel intuitive or efficient.

All in all though I feel they produced a fairly good game, especially if you get it on sale. Again though, as a side note I definitely wouldn't have paid full price if I had known about the dedicated server issue having to own a second game key license, that would have turned me away right then and there. Thats a thing GIANTS definitely need to keep in mind for their next game!

[Ghost]

Ghost, where do we tell you that the Dedicated Server Software is a standalone game? At the buy page, it is very clearly stated that it does not include the game and a separate game license is required.

This is a link to your own web site DLC page :- A standalone software for persistent online farming worlds! ..... http://www.farming-simulator.com/dlc.php?lang=en

In my honest opinion, standalone software says that this is all you need to play the game.

Edit

This is not a game! - A physical server and a Farming Simulator 2013 license (sold separately) are required to use this software! The Steam version can't be used to run a dedicated server.

This tells me that I need a license to use this server, it DOESN'T tell me I need a second license to play. I have a license, I play the game for hours and hours every day. I personally think that Giants worded it this way to cause people to buy the software believing that was all they needed to spend. Now when people are complaining about it what do Giants do? They turn their backs and refuse to accept that they are wrong.

Farmer bob beat me to it. I get the impression from your own web site that the software is all you need to host a server. It does not spell out that you need to buy another copy of the game to run it. I love this game, I understand game making is a business. But I don't understand how stand alone software means I have to buy another copy of a game to make it work.

It's easy enough for me to reference other stand alone software servers I have used. The first one I ever used was for Battlefield 1942. I bought the game, loved it, found a stand alone software server for free from the company that made the game. I used that server to host games for me and my friends online.

I am not saying you should give away a copy of your game for free. But It only makes since that when you create a stand alone server software pack, that it is exactly that. The Server should have everything it needs to host a game included. you should not be able to play the game through the server, just host. That is what stand alone software means to me anyways.

Maybe I am wrong?

[Stegei]

The "standalone" means that it is a standalone webserver and no other hosting software is required, such as Apache or Mysql. However, I agree that the term is not really clear in connection with a game server. We will change the description text to make it more clear.
The text does not say explicitly that you can't play with the same license while the dedicated server is running. However, since it is never possible to run two instances of the game with the same license, it should be clear that it is also not possible with the dedicated server. Nevertheless, I will check if we can improve the text to tell this more explicitly.

[rumes]

We know, that the current licensing situation is not ideal. We would love to create a single package for a decent price. But we mainly have three problems:
1. Since the game is exclusively licensed to other partners, like Astragon and Focus Home Interactive, we are not allowed to give out licenses of the game for any price we like.
2. We have no special server-only game version. Thus if we would give out server licenses of the game for free or a low price, why would anybody continue to pay for the game? However creating a server-only game version is quite time consuming and also more expensive to maintain.
3. We can't give out the Dedicated Server Software for free, due to the Crowd-Funding project where one was able to get a license for 15 Euros instead of 25. This funding project was necessary to partially finance the development of the server version. We were willing to invest some money or our side, however not the full amount (the actually development did cost about 3 times more than what we did raise in the funding project), especially with the uncertainty of the demand by the players. With this funding project, we were able to get both in one action.

Let me rephrase that for you: the current situation is way beyond bad! Ok, it's bad only for us, the (potentially) paying customers, while Giants already sold some licences via the funding campaign and can only hope to make more money out a really weak piece of software.

I'm not going to insist over Giants' (poor) decisions or pretend that I know how to run a business, but I do have to ask myself how 75.000€ bought only some scripts for a webserver and not a proper, stand-alone, GUI-less server. And asking 25€ ("dedicated server" scripts) + 25€ (server-side game) + 25€ (client-side game) = 75€!!! is no way to treat the customers, especially when having such a great community that actively contributes to the game with their time and effort by creating mods and enhancing the gameplay.

While I do love to play FS every now and then, I'm not going to pay 50€ just to run the dedicated server.