Buried trees and map creators

Corstaad
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Buried trees and map creators

Post by Corstaad » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:34 pm

I'm hoping this gets spread around more. Burying trees to get better landscape appeal should be avoided like the plague. It's effectively polluting the map with really bad base trees models. Thanks

bossmanslim
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Re: Buried trees and map creators

Post by bossmanslim » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:42 pm

To quote a map editor from another thread, on another forum, on this very topic in relation to a converted map that has a ton of buried trees on it.

You are correct, there are a lot of buried trees which gives this map an interesting appearance as well as requiring a more realistic way to remove the trees completely. In real life, you don't just cut a tree down and the rest of it just magically disappears once you use a stump grinder on it. Stump grinders only go so deep and they only remove the surface of the root system. That's fine in cases where there is not going to be any construction activities but if you are planning on building embankments, buildings, or drives you will need to "hog" out the complete root system, typically with an excavator. These embedded trees emulate this to an extent. Instead of using an excavator like IRL, in the game you can use the landscape tool to dig down to the bottom of the tree and grind/cut it out.

A possible remedy (to dealing with buried trees) would be to use an all in one grinder like the burks grinder if the stray limbs become a problem (dropping through the map) with your system. With a mod such as the burks the whole tree is ground up and converted to chips. I have used that in my testing to ensure the starting farm trees could be removed to an extent that you could build on that land. Thanks.

This map is definitely not for everyone. I built it towards a target audience that can relate to farming/logging IRL where the terrain is challenging. I understand most players don't want to deal with the nuisances of snagging a fence post maneuvering their equipment or running into branches but there a a few out there that can relate to these nuisances since they deal
With them in a daily basis.


I chose to quit the map and move on, after all it's his map, so he can do what he wants.

billy_roberts_81
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Re: Buried trees and map creators

Post by billy_roberts_81 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:08 pm

Corstaad wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:34 pm
I'm hoping this gets spread around more. Burying trees to get better landscape appeal should be avoided like the plague. It's effectively polluting the map with really bad base trees models. Thanks
And what would you suggest they do instead?

Map makers do this to make natural scenery looks more realistic. You only have a few choices of trees to use in Farm Sim construction and some come only in 1 size.

All GIANTS trees have no foliage lower down. This means if you were to build a forest you would be able to see right through it. Which isn't very realistic.

Lowering some trees down into the ground is a way of making the forests and any wooded areas look more dense looking.

You also have to take into account the amount of trees you place on a map as the more you place the more it drops FPS performance.


As in all things it is a compromise, do you want the map to have realistic scenery or are you only concerned with playing a game regardless of how little it resembles RL.

Also "telling" map makers how they should or shouldn't make a map from someone who doesn't make them comes across as a bit rude personally. Don't expect map makers to take your comments with anything but offense and derision.

Maybe instead have a go yourself at making a map and come with a better solution. That combines realistic scenery with better playability.

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this_is_gav
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Re: Buried trees and map creators

Post by this_is_gav » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:09 pm

Map makers will make the map they want to make and if burying trees makes for a more varied and pleasant-looking map then that's up to them.

Whether you play it or not is another matter.

bossmanslim
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Re: Buried trees and map creators

Post by bossmanslim » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:29 pm

billy_roberts_81 wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:08 pm
And what would you suggest they do instead?
As there are custom objects in all maps, I recommend chopping the bottom of the tree off instead, creating another tree model. Maybe this isn't as feasible/easy, but it doesn't seem that unreasonable to me. Same goes for static vs removable fences and hedge rows.

Pict
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Re: Buried trees and map creators

Post by Pict » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Corstaad wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:34 pm
I'm hoping this gets spread around more. Burying trees to get better landscape appeal should be avoided like the plague. It's effectively polluting the map with really bad base trees models. Thanks
Agreed, it's a waste of resources and lacking in imagination. These maps should come with a cautionary "trees buried on this map" in their description.

This has been done by Giants as well on the South American map irc, ruined it for many people and refused to fix it.

I'm on PC and if I really like the look of a map, I will take the time to look at it in the editor. It amazing just how much junk some mappers leave under the surface of the map, not just tree's but stuff they have loaded into the map and haven't bothered to clean out before publishing. Then some of the models they use have massive poly counts, just massive. Ultimately they all count, it matters not if they are above or below the map and trees add up fast to destroy frame rates on an average system.

If the map is really interesting and there is not too much time to be lost cleaning it up, I will use the delete button to maximum effect, my rule of thumb here being, if it's not functional or down right necessary, then it must be absolutely beautiful or it's gone :)

There are other ways to decorate maps and I think planting underground forests that pretend to be bushes or hedges is just silly. If I want to make a hedge I will plant poplars for example. This gives you the chance to remove the hedge with relative ease should you want when in game. Additionally poplars are light on frames and are dynamic, in that they grow and change colour.

It's up to the individual in the end. For me less really is more when it comes to map decoration, as I'm going to leave pallets & tools etc., laying around as I go along in the game, and I prefer the clear space to clutter up myself than be bogged down with junk someone thinks looks realistic.

Really good mappers don't need to spam a map with junk to make it realistic ;)

Corstaad
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Re: Buried trees and map creators

Post by Corstaad » Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:46 pm

This is feedback. Being they made the map public I'd expect they want and expect this. It's a real pain in the butt trying to "dig" these up. It's has no correlation with real life because I don't know of any green box lower raise dirt operators. Alot of the top of trees have no hitbox to them so we can't even chain saw them off at ground level. Please rethink the buried trees. Thanks.

Procobator
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Re: Buried trees and map creators

Post by Procobator » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:33 pm

To each their own. The feedback here in this topic appears quite harsh. I hear such phrases as “junk” “lack of imagination” and “bad models”. And the idea that modders should expect criticism because they decided to share their hours of work with the community doesn’t really sit well with me.

One thing I know of for sure though, whenever I see an individual complaining about how come some modders keep their work private I’ll link them this topic.

This topic I feel could have been insightful, however the tone here is quite negative.

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redglasses
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Re: Buried trees and map creators

Post by redglasses » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:46 pm

The problem I have is that you can’t really edit the ground right where a tree is. At least from my experience.
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FarmBoss
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Re: Buried trees and map creators

Post by FarmBoss » Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:27 am

I agree. It's a hack that is a bad idea. I'm surprised there are not more assets to use for shrubs.

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Farming Girl
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Re: Buried trees and map creators

Post by Farming Girl » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:14 am

I've said it once and ill say it again, i'm new to modding and decided to make mods, because i want to make maps! and when i move onto making a map ill be able to make what i need, thus making the map as original as possible (i will still use some stock items), this being said! a few months ago i would have been the first to complain if i was't happy with a map, however i now have a new appreciation for the long hours modders put in to learn their craft and then into creating what they do, so what i say is, if you don't like a map, *censored* it up and move on! there are loads out there, or better still have a go at making one, you will then see how hard it is and how much you get moaned at!
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norfolk farmer
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Re: Buried trees and map creators

Post by norfolk farmer » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:56 am

I believe I'm correct in saying that as it stands at the moment to get a map seasons ready modders have to use in game trees. If this is the case I can see why they may have to be creative with how they use them.

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Farming Girl
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Re: Buried trees and map creators

Post by Farming Girl » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:03 am

norfolk farmer wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:56 am
I believe I'm correct in saying that as it stands at the moment to get a map seasons ready modders have to use in game trees. If this is the case I can see why they may have to be creative with how they use them.
Yes you are correct, at the moment you can only use stock trees at the moment.
Ann-Marie

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Corstaad
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Re: Buried trees and map creators

Post by Corstaad » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:24 am

I don't understand how this is negative feedback. Users of the map have to go to extreme measures to eliminate shrubs on maps. Simply burying trees to get shrubs may not be worth the effort.

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this_is_gav
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Re: Buried trees and map creators

Post by this_is_gav » Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:19 am

Corstaad wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:24 am
I don't understand how this is negative feedback. Users of the map have to go to extreme measures to eliminate shrubs on maps. Simply burying trees to get shrubs may not be worth the effort.
I say again, many map makers aren't primarily making maps for others, they're making them for themselves. That many go to the extra effort of making those maps available to others is a bonus, but don't expect map makers to go to extra efforts to get around what some users see as downsides.

If they replaced those sunken trees with new bespoke models I don't think you would be able to cut them down anyway.

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