A question for modders

oyeebodcc
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A question for modders

Post by oyeebodcc » Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:16 am

This is my first ever post on this forum so please bear with me if this topic has been discussed before.
Before I ask my question I think a brief intro of where I'm coming from is required. I have been playing and building maps for my own use since FS13. Inspired by the work of Bullet Bill and Oxygen David I decided to start contributing to the community and I published two maps for FS17 on the old FS-UK site, Ballydorn and Rathlin Island. Both these maps, however good or bad they may have been, were downloaded many thousands of times so I assume they gave a small amount of entertainment to at least a few people. I converted Ballydorn to FS19 for my own use but then decided to give it to Farmer Klein who released it. I thought there may be a few people out there who will get some pleasure out of playing it and I was right, because much to my amazement and just on the sites which record downloads I counted more than 21000.
I built these maps for the pure pleasure of building them and apart from the structure of the maps every object on them was lifted from other peoples maps. I neither have the software, the time or the skill to build models, but back in FS17 days I didn't need to. Certainly on FS-UK everybody helped everybody else, as long as you gave credit to where you found the models nobody had a problem with them being used, everybody was focused on simply producing bigger and better maps for the community to enjoy. I have never seen a map yet which does not have models or objects lifted from somewhere else, some of them going back so far that no-one would have any idea who first built them or who should receive the credit. There are map makers who have the skill to push the boundaries of this game, whether it be models or scripts, and then there are people like me who can follow behind and simply produce maps which somebody out there might like to play.
I am currently playing Six Ashes, not the released version but one which I have edited beyond all recognition. The initial map was brilliant but I like my maps to be as close to real life as possible and I have added scripts and hundreds of objects from all the best maps around to turn it into a sort of super map. With the release of Chellington Valley all it's best features are now part of Six Ashes. I have no doubt that there are many other people who would love to play this map but of course I will never release it because the original map is not my work.

Now I don't want this to turn into an Oxy v's Giants post (it has nothing to do with that so please respect this) but it was the news that his brilliant map was taken down because he had used a model or models from another map which has prompted this post.
So finally to the question, if I had the skill to build a model or write a script I would not be the slightest offended if someone else used it, in fact quite the opposite. If someone took one of my maps, edited it to their preferences and then re-released it, I would be delighted, it might be just the map somebody else was looking for. Has the Giants Modhub and the lure of a few quid turned this community from the original goal of improving the game, or is it now just a need to seek credit for what I consider to be simply a hobby. Should we not be going back to the days when the modders were a community who helped each other, and I don't mean just a few cliques, I mean the whole FS modding community coming together in something like the old FS-UK. A place where everyone can share experience and new ideas, where we can encourage new modders and help existing ones to reach their full potential. Somewhere that we can see who built a new model or wrote a new script and give them credit when we use it. The number of real modders, the people who put hundreds of hours of work into producing amazing maps and models are a miniscule and select number compared to the number of people who play this game. If you build a brilliant model or write a script and you want credit for it then there should be somewhere you can post it where your fellow modders can get your permission and credit you for its use, is that not a better way forward than stoping a map maker who loved your work from producing a great map.
I spend hours looking for new maps which I can edit for my own use and there are a lot of brilliant maps which do not contain a single original object or script, they just simply work as a brilliant map, but invariably they lose out because they're missing the latest innovations which some other modder has introduced to FarmSim. I don't believe that this is the best way to keep peoples interest in the game, and when people lose interest in a game then there is no longer any purpose for the modders.

I appreciate not everybody wants to build maps, most people just enjoy the game and the maps and models which you the modders create. I have been really pleased to see some of the well known modders coming together to produce amazing advances in the game but at the same time I fear for the day when their mods move towards intellectual property or copywrite or even worse we start to lose the individual modders who lose interest because they can't compete.

It has been said many times and everyone including Giants know it, it is the mods and new maps which make this game the success it is. Maybe this is a question which would be better addressed to Giants rather than the modders, it is certainly a modding environment which they could create, but somehow I feel that modding is something which will grow or wither (excuse the pun) in the hands of the modders.
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this_is_gav
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Re: A question for modders

Post by this_is_gav » Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:25 pm

I don't think maps should be re-released by anyone, no matter how much has changed from the original. I don't mind people who allow that of course (even BulletBill allowed someone else to release a Coldborough edit on FS15 I think it was), but it shouldn't be an expectation.

It's one thing using models from a map or object but my opinion is that the level of work involved in getting a top map from a blank canvas is so personal that I think it should forever belong to them.

Modding well is an art form and you wouldn't expect a forged or modified painting or sculpture to feel as good as the original...

Image


The exception being from game to game if the original author agrees, as the character of the map rarely feels the same between games. Look at how 'cold' even Lone Oak and Oakfield feel on FS19 - they're still very good, but they lack something from the FS17 versions.



As for objects themselves there is an argument to say that all maps start to feel the same when they use the same objects, and to a degree that is true. The other thing is when you start to import objects from loads of different sources you lose the consistency and warmth of a map. It becomes a collage rather than a painting and might mask the work underneath.

I think this was the case in FS15, where there were a load of UK maps released but most of them used the same objects and looking back now I struggle to remember which is which, with a few exceptions. Many of those were good maps individually, but the map isn't especially memorable as they all used the same sheds and buildings.

3D modelling isn't an easy skill. It takes a considerable time to learn (and you'll never stop learning), a considerable time to model, it's completely unintuitive but a few unique objects is often the difference between a good map and a forgettable one. A decent map maker with the ability to spot what would and wouldn't suit a map can still make a good map with existing models, but there's an awful lot of repetitive maps out there.

Drmattymd
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Re: A question for modders

Post by Drmattymd » Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:01 am

Im pretty sure his map was taken down or didnt pass due to branding issues, not claims of lifted work
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Patton_M47
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Re: A question for modders

Post by Patton_M47 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:20 am

oyeebodcc wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:16 am
This is my first ever post on this forum so please bear with me if this topic has been discussed before.
Before I ask my question I think a brief intro of where I'm coming from is required. I have been playing and building maps for my own use since FS13. Inspired by the work of Bullet Bill and Oxygen David I decided to start contributing to the community and I published two maps for FS17 on the old FS-UK site, Ballydorn and Rathlin Island. Both these maps, however good or bad they may have been, were downloaded many thousands of times so I assume they gave a small amount of entertainment to at least a few people. I converted Ballydorn to FS19 for my own use but then decided to give it to Farmer Klein who released it. I thought there may be a few people out there who will get some pleasure out of playing it and I was right, because much to my amazement and just on the sites which record downloads I counted more than 21000.
I built these maps for the pure pleasure of building them and apart from the structure of the maps every object on them was lifted from other peoples maps. I neither have the software, the time or the skill to build models, but back in FS17 days I didn't need to. Certainly on FS-UK everybody helped everybody else, as long as you gave credit to where you found the models nobody had a problem with them being used, everybody was focused on simply producing bigger and better maps for the community to enjoy. I have never seen a map yet which does not have models or objects lifted from somewhere else, some of them going back so far that no-one would have any idea who first built them or who should receive the credit. There are map makers who have the skill to push the boundaries of this game, whether it be models or scripts, and then there are people like me who can follow behind and simply produce maps which somebody out there might like to play.
I am currently playing Six Ashes, not the released version but one which I have edited beyond all recognition. The initial map was brilliant but I like my maps to be as close to real life as possible and I have added scripts and hundreds of objects from all the best maps around to turn it into a sort of super map. With the release of Chellington Valley all it's best features are now part of Six Ashes. I have no doubt that there are many other people who would love to play this map but of course I will never release it because the original map is not my work.

Now I don't want this to turn into an Oxy v's Giants post (it has nothing to do with that so please respect this) but it was the news that his brilliant map was taken down because he had used a model or models from another map which has prompted this post.
So finally to the question, if I had the skill to build a model or write a script I would not be the slightest offended if someone else used it, in fact quite the opposite. If someone took one of my maps, edited it to their preferences and then re-released it, I would be delighted, it might be just the map somebody else was looking for. Has the Giants Modhub and the lure of a few quid turned this community from the original goal of improving the game, or is it now just a need to seek credit for what I consider to be simply a hobby. Should we not be going back to the days when the modders were a community who helped each other, and I don't mean just a few cliques, I mean the whole FS modding community coming together in something like the old FS-UK. A place where everyone can share experience and new ideas, where we can encourage new modders and help existing ones to reach their full potential. Somewhere that we can see who built a new model or wrote a new script and give them credit when we use it. The number of real modders, the people who put hundreds of hours of work into producing amazing maps and models are a miniscule and select number compared to the number of people who play this game. If you build a brilliant model or write a script and you want credit for it then there should be somewhere you can post it where your fellow modders can get your permission and credit you for its use, is that not a better way forward than stoping a map maker who loved your work from producing a great map.
I spend hours looking for new maps which I can edit for my own use and there are a lot of brilliant maps which do not contain a single original object or script, they just simply work as a brilliant map, but invariably they lose out because they're missing the latest innovations which some other modder has introduced to FarmSim. I don't believe that this is the best way to keep peoples interest in the game, and when people lose interest in a game then there is no longer any purpose for the modders.

I appreciate not everybody wants to build maps, most people just enjoy the game and the maps and models which you the modders create. I have been really pleased to see some of the well known modders coming together to produce amazing advances in the game but at the same time I fear for the day when their mods move towards intellectual property or copywrite or even worse we start to lose the individual modders who lose interest because they can't compete.

It has been said many times and everyone including Giants know it, it is the mods and new maps which make this game the success it is. Maybe this is a question which would be better addressed to Giants rather than the modders, it is certainly a modding environment which they could create, but somehow I feel that modding is something which will grow or wither (excuse the pun) in the hands of the modders.
as a modder i agree with you if someone wants to tweak one of my mods go ahead just make sure to put me and anyone else whos in the credits in the credits
I do FS19 old school mods and FS19 military mods for PC let me know if you want anything done
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blue_painted
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Re: A question for modders

Post by blue_painted » Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:28 am

I remember Rathlin on FS17 -- a map I had a lot of fun on.

I don't think the fundamentals have really changed: you still *can* use other people's models but only with their permission, that hasn't changed from FS17. It gets complicated when models get used, re-used and re--reused ... after all, who made the washing line that you see on almost every map ever? The GIANTS DLC is different, because in that case they choose NOT to give permission, just as any modder can.
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DEERE317
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Re: A question for modders

Post by DEERE317 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:31 am

Drmattymd wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:01 am
Im pretty sure his map was taken down or didnt pass due to branding issues, not claims of lifted work
He also accidentally use TopAce’s hot air balloons from Minibrun.
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oyeebodcc
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Re: A question for modders

Post by oyeebodcc » Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:52 am

blue_painted wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:28 am
I remember Rathlin on FS17 -- a map I had a lot of fun on.

I don't think the fundamentals have really changed: you still *can* use other people's models but only with their permission, that hasn't changed from FS17. It gets complicated when models get used, re-used and re--reused ... after all, who made the washing line that you see on almost every map ever? The GIANTS DLC is different, because in that case they choose NOT to give permission, just as any modder can.
Exactly my point, unless you know every map that's out there how do you know who to credit if you re-use a model. When the Modhub first started I thought it would be a good thing to have a central point where all mods would be submitted and we could find out who to credit for an object. Unfortunately getting a map onto Modhub has proved so difficult that a large percentage of them are released through other sites.
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Patton_M47
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Re: A question for modders

Post by Patton_M47 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:31 pm

maybe giants should create another modhub with less restrictions
I do FS19 old school mods and FS19 military mods for PC let me know if you want anything done
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Illinois Farmer
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Re: A question for modders

Post by Illinois Farmer » Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:13 pm

They created the rules for modhub minus the console restrictions, so don't see them creating another modhub with no rules.
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Patton_M47
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Re: A question for modders

Post by Patton_M47 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:37 pm

yeah i guess your right
I do FS19 old school mods and FS19 military mods for PC let me know if you want anything done
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BulletBill
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Re: A question for modders

Post by BulletBill » Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:03 pm

oyeebodcc wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:52 am
blue_painted wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:28 am
I remember Rathlin on FS17 -- a map I had a lot of fun on.

I don't think the fundamentals have really changed: you still *can* use other people's models but only with their permission, that hasn't changed from FS17. It gets complicated when models get used, re-used and re--reused ... after all, who made the washing line that you see on almost every map ever? The GIANTS DLC is different, because in that case they choose NOT to give permission, just as any modder can.
Exactly my point, unless you know every map that's out there how do you know who to credit if you re-use a model. When the Modhub first started I thought it would be a good thing to have a central point where all mods would be submitted and we could find out who to credit for an object. Unfortunately getting a map onto Modhub has proved so difficult that a large percentage of them are released through other sites.
I agree with you back on FS-UK when I was first making mod maps there was a healthy respect between modders and asking permission was the rule not the exception it is now.

Sadly since that time newer mappers feel there is no need to ask permission, that they can take what they want and upload it to Modhub to make a few pennies. If it was the odd object I think the majority of modders wouldn't care, but when you get mappers taking the actual DEM terrain map and rotating it 90°, not to mention stripping out every asset from one of your own maps and not once have they asked permission that starts to make people a bit defensive.

It doesn't help that GIANTS have this weird policy on Modhub that you can't add any credits section in the description. Everytime I tried to I was told to remove it and I know other modders have been told the same.

As there is no longer any central modding community there is nowhere for modders to interact as a whole. Instead the community is just fragmented groups. That isolation doesn't help either.

Lastly just wanted to say I always liked your Rathin Island map, it had such a unique, original feel about it. Especially the ferry between the two parts of the map.
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bojanh66
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Re: A question for modders

Post by bojanh66 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:30 pm

It doesn't help that GIANTS have this weird policy on Modhub that you can't add any credits section in the description. Everytime I tried to I was told to remove it and I know other modders have been told the same.
For example, this modder is allowed to make credits.
https://www.farming-simulator.com/mod.p ... _id=180514

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BulletBill
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Re: A question for modders

Post by BulletBill » Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:12 pm

bojanh66 wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:30 pm
It doesn't help that GIANTS have this weird policy on Modhub that you can't add any credits section in the description. Everytime I tried to I was told to remove it and I know other modders have been told the same.
For example, this modder is allowed to make credits.
https://www.farming-simulator.com/mod.p ... _id=180514

Image
I think that highlights the inconsistency of the Modhub testers. :lol: Some get told one thing others get told another. I was told it was Modhub policy at the time.
Although at this point in time I should probably question anything a Modhub tester says and not believe a word. :lol:
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Guil
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Re: A question for modders

Post by Guil » Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:30 pm

Would a section on the forum be an option or even use the newish modders helping modders?

Could be an idea to talk to giants and try get something created for modders?

DEERE317
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Re: A question for modders

Post by DEERE317 » Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:34 pm

There is the modding forum you have to join to get GE so...
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