I hate being “that guy” but…

BulletBill
Posts: 548
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:50 am

Re: I hate being “that guy” but…

Post by BulletBill »

I have to agree with Hellas Farmer, I don't get the appeal of having a game that is "supposed" to be simulating farming, yet has graphics that do not look real or natural at all.

I showed the latest 3 pictures of Elmcreek released to my wife who has zero interest in Farm Sim or games in general, just to get an outsiders reaction and initial view of the game. (Plus she is usually the last person to ever agree with my own views :lol: )

Her first reaction was, "that doesn't look very real", then she pointed out that while you could take 1 tree and it looked quite detailed, when you looked at the whole screenshot everything looked very fake and didn't look like natural scenery. In the end she couldn't put her finger on exactly what was wrong, but she did state that she didn't find the pictures appealing at all from a purely aesthetic viewpoint.

I would love to know what GIANTS graphics department had as there aims when working on the graphics for Fs19 and Fs22. As far as I can tell "natural" and "realistic scenery" didn't come up in any of there discussions.

Also to those who argue "it's just a game"... that doesn't make any sense, just because it's a game doesn't mean it has to look more removed from the real thing.
One of the main reasons we like a lot of stuff in Farm Sim is because it is familiar to what we see in RL. When it looks fake or wrong it kills the enjoyment and immersion.
As by that reasoning it wouldn't matter about having RL brands ingame if it's "just a game". It wouldn't matter if your John Deere was purple with red rims. It wouldn't matter if any of the game features were anything to do with farming.
Join the "Frontier Design" Discord: https://discord.gg/7P8ePvU
1992Tadej1992
Posts: 297
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:12 pm

Re: I hate being “that guy” but…

Post by 1992Tadej1992 »

Looks like nothing that would change my opinion about playing fs again. It is just so lifeless and boring.

We dont need more features, we need better basics first. Tractors driving around and working on their fields for example. Where is the community, where u trade wheat for some corn or smth? Do u need a cow? Ok i will give u 5 sheeps! Do u need to transport smth? Call a friend or order from company to do that instead of you buying a truck. Or hack funds lol.

That is farming simulator experience, that attract people.
User avatar
theSeb
Posts: 1517
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:16 pm

Re: I hate being “that guy” but…

Post by theSeb »

I was focussing on this part of a previous post

“ Giants, if you are reading this, revaluate your product's philosophy; you have moved away from the simulation genre.”

My argument is that they haven’t moved away from the simulation genre. They never were in the simulation genre in the first place. If anything they are very slowly moving into the genre, but are still miles away from what a reasonable person would consider a simulator in the typical computer game simulation genre.

They have had over a decade to make the game into a farm simulator, but they have chosen not to. We already know that the engine is capable of so much more - look at dural’s MR even back in 2011 as evidence.

They have only taken baby steps like ploughing required, weeds, lime and so forth and all of those have been implemented in a very basic and arcadey kind of way with toggles to make sure that they don’t upset a certain part of the fan base. But those things do push the game slightly forward into the simulation genre. Maybe one day we will have tractors that do not stop and accelerate like sports cars and things like weight and HP will matter.
Illinois Farmer
Posts: 4923
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:34 pm

Re: I hate being “that guy” but…

Post by Illinois Farmer »

I also don't consider it a simulation as to me simulations should teach you what something is like or allow you to know what to expect and this misses on both aspects. Fs hasn't taught me anything about real life farming, frankly you will be lost if this all you knew. Good for the squad for making his dreams come true, but he was and still would be extremely lost without his neighbors and family to help him. I guarantee he has already learned way more about farming in a month then he did years playing this game. To those people that just show up to talk about graphics, what giants need to do before any sky work in my opinion is the crop texture.
1300 acre farm, finish out just about 10,000 hogs a year, 200 cattle, and xbox one and pc user.
Bryan83
Posts: 1489
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:10 am
Location: Western Washington, USA

Re: I hate being “that guy” but…

Post by Bryan83 »

Hellas Farmer wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:46 pm
That's also true... Gameplay wise the game could be expanded a lot more maybe even to an RPG level as it is indeed a sandbox game.
  • Tractors around, working the fields.
    AI NPCs could be also expanding after a few seasons, upgrading or just changing vehicles, buying fields which if we want them we would have to pay at an additional price off of them.
  • We already can do jobs for them, what if the ones we have good relationship with ask for favours in struggling times?
  • Random offers by NPCs to buy animals or an equipment you own, some asking for a reduced price or crops off of you (but you would get other benefits in exchange like discounts in used tractors/equipment they own and want to sell).
    So no more random shop discounts but specific items we see on the map by the NPCs.
  • Random events, bad weather destroying crops or reducing their yield, draughts, infestations for a certain type of crop. That would subsequently increase its sell price if we had some stored in our silos from last year.
  • As you also said, services to transport stuff around if we are tired of repeatedly going to the shops and back.
For all of the above we could have options on what brands will appear on the map or the probability of random events etc.

I would absolutely love some of the above, a million times more than another type of crop.
To expand on this post, instead of randomly hauling crops and selling them whenever, shops should place orders, or contracts should be issued by grain sell points once or twice a year, with penalties for not fulfilling. That way, we'd actually have to plan our fields based on what we need to deliver come harvest.

Maybe a RL farmer can answer this, but how much of farming is just planting stuff and hoping for a good price at the end? I mean I hear just about every YT farmer talk about hauling grain to fill a contract, so it seems like it's fairly prevalent.
Join us on the FS Community Trader. As featured on MrSealyP's Lukahs Island let's play.

Please forgive me, I am but a lowly console player (XB1)
Mwal
Posts: 3270
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: I hate being “that guy” but…

Post by Mwal »

I’m mostly interested in the productions aspect of the next game for the by products. I’m not super keen on selling sugar and flour but more so using things like pulp and tailings, wet cake, molasses, ect. for feeding our cattle or land applying for money.
User avatar
theSeb
Posts: 1517
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:16 pm

Re: I hate being “that guy” but…

Post by theSeb »

My apologies then. I figured you were veering off into the gameplay discussion by this paragraph

“ My guess is they are too scared to change much as they worry they will lose their fanbase so they stick to a similar path of FS19 on all departments.”
Illinois Farmer
Posts: 4923
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:34 pm

Re: I hate being “that guy” but…

Post by Illinois Farmer »

Bryan83 wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:57 pm
Hellas Farmer wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:46 pm
That's also true... Gameplay wise the game could be expanded a lot more maybe even to an RPG level as it is indeed a sandbox game.
  • Tractors around, working the fields.
    AI NPCs could be also expanding after a few seasons, upgrading or just changing vehicles, buying fields which if we want them we would have to pay at an additional price off of them.
  • We already can do jobs for them, what if the ones we have good relationship with ask for favours in struggling times?
  • Random offers by NPCs to buy animals or an equipment you own, some asking for a reduced price or crops off of you (but you would get other benefits in exchange like discounts in used tractors/equipment they own and want to sell).
    So no more random shop discounts but specific items we see on the map by the NPCs.
  • Random events, bad weather destroying crops or reducing their yield, draughts, infestations for a certain type of crop. That would subsequently increase its sell price if we had some stored in our silos from last year.
  • As you also said, services to transport stuff around if we are tired of repeatedly going to the shops and back.
For all of the above we could have options on what brands will appear on the map or the probability of random events etc.

I would absolutely love some of the above, a million times more than another type of crop.
To expand on this post, instead of randomly hauling crops and selling them whenever, shops should place orders, or contracts should be issued by grain sell points once or twice a year, with penalties for not fulfilling. That way, we'd actually have to plan our fields based on what we need to deliver come harvest.

Maybe a RL farmer can answer this, but how much of farming is just planting stuff and hoping for a good price at the end? I mean I hear just about every YT farmer talk about hauling grain to fill a contract, so it seems like it's fairly prevalent.
Yes contacts on everything. Once our bins are full, we usually have 25000 to 30000 bushels to sell in the fall as well that we just set a price then or get a contract right now for the fall. The pigs are about the only cash base we do still and that's because the base is too wide and no plant is taking contacts at the moment.
1300 acre farm, finish out just about 10,000 hogs a year, 200 cattle, and xbox one and pc user.
User avatar
chedly_farms
Posts: 3426
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:05 pm
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: I hate being “that guy” but…

Post by chedly_farms »

I’d like to see cotton seed as a byproduct at the cotton gin/cotton sale point. And then used as a feed for dairy cows.
Currently Playing on XBoxOne : Elm Creek
_________________
My inside source is more awesome than your inside source.
Retired Part Time Key-Board Warrior, Sarcastic Poster.
I know that Giants probably won't make a gravity wagon, but I love to read the responses.

-----> And "Thank You Modders" for your contributions <----
Gormett
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:21 am

Re: I hate being “that guy” but…

Post by Gormett »

Hellas Farmer wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:53 pm There is no way though the game does not try to present a realistic environment. That's what I am talking about.

Why can't it look similar to that? Can you really tell me that's something Giants don't want to achieve?
That they prefer a more cartooney environment when they try their hardest to make the tractors to look real? And also reminds me, bring back the skybox. FS sky/clouds looks horrendous.
I feel like comparing FS to Forza is a little bit unfair. Also, what I noticed is that many fans like to argue in absolutes. "If GTA did this Giants should too", "Snowrunner did dynamic terrain, why not Giants" and the response is "Who would want that extreme case of mud, better not implement it at all". "It's a simulator yet it's more like an arcade" and the response is "Hurr durr make one yourself"...

But recently I came across "Tenstar Simulation" who basically do professional work simulators and found out that they do make a "Tractor Simulator" and they already have done what Farming Simulator does and more, such as:
  • Better graphics
  • Dynamic Terrain
  • Tractor components, parts and damage
  • Working, usable mirrors
  • Stable [realistic] bale physics
  • Better [realistic] attachment system
  • VR support with machinery interaction
All this..... in 2015



Here's more videos:
Tenstar Agriculture (includes VR walkaround)
(Multiplayer)MME x Tractor x Combine Harvester
2018 Graphics update

So I feel like I finally found concrete evidence that all the features players have been asking for have actually been possible since 2015, in a Farming Game if the developer is right.
User avatar
DEERE317
Posts: 3189
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:01 pm

Re: I hate being “that guy” but…

Post by DEERE317 »

It looks worse than FS15 on low graphics. So not sure how that’s better.
Has basically no equipment options.
Vehicle damage would result in no/minimal licensed brands for FS.
Mirrors is no one positioning them correctly, so they work just pointed wrong.
VR, still niche.
Oh and did you notice it’s not a game but a training system? Does it have crop selling, livestock, etc? Also what’s the price.
And also doesn’t have Multiplayer.
So… I think that’s a pile of male cow manure
FS15 & FS19 Platinum Edition PC (and War Thunder, Gaijin is way worse than GIANTS ever has been accused of being)
FS Comunity Trader: https://fs19communitytrader.freeforums.net/
Desktop: i5-9400f, RTX 2060, 8gb RAM, 256gb SSD.
Laptop: Pentium Silver N5000, UHD605, 4gb RAM, 1tb HDD.
Deere, Fendt, Claas, and sometimes the rest of Agco.
User avatar
Guil
Posts: 7391
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:43 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: I hate being “that guy” but…

Post by Guil »

Hellas Farmer wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:49 am
theSeb wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:00 am Farming Simulator was never in the simulation genre, despite the name "simulator" in the title. It's clearly never intended to be a simulator and the direction should be clear by now after 12/13 years. It's a fun tractor driving sandbox game.

I mean Precision Farming was created and published for that very reason and Giants worked with Universities and EIT Food as to bring people closer to farming practices through its simulated environment.

If your statement reflects Giants vision and how they handle it, I would like a confirmation from them as I feel like I have been properly fooled for years and I am sure many others will do the same.

I have to admit I am a bit shocked from reading "that it is not meant to be a simulator" but what a "Crash Bandicoot" with tractors?

So environments are not to be realistic but places set in a fictional world?
All these Coldborough, Lone Oak, Oakfield or Pemberton real location maps have no place in it and their creators have been trying to make them as close to reality as possible for nothing?

If these are OK to be realistic then what shouldn't be? What are the limits?

I have to reiterate that I am talking about the visual department not gameplay, I have been pretty clear about it.

I really hope your opinion does not in any way reflect Giants'.
IIRC precision farming was borne out of a partnership with JD and EIT and has no mention of a partnership with Giants or FS.
https://www.eitfood.eu/projects/integra ... puter-game

Every Giants map has always been described as a fictional place so I'd tent to agree that they are not striving for realism in any shape or form
IseOlen
Posts: 215
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:53 pm

Re: I hate being “that guy” but…

Post by IseOlen »

What would really help bring life into the FS world:
1. Let NPC-s actually WORK their fields. Atm NPC fields are treated as "FIELD=X, Status=Y". You'll never see a tractor on the NPC field (unless you do a contract yourself). The engine is already capable of managing lots of "units" to work at the same time (helpers, Courseplay, MP). So why not NPC-s? And the fields could also then have "missed bits" when NPC F* up - not 1/0 as it is now. The engine could make a midnight checkpoint and finish all the NPC-s work so you would not get problems when user FF-s (mainly related to Seasons).
2. That same midnight checkpoint could also produce a report of "what happened today". Not just for the player but for NPC-s too. Fields worked on, crops planted or sold, animals born/bough/sold, stuff bought from the shop (or sold). Keep the report in archive, so I can check them later (compare reports of the same period in different years/periods). Would be absolutely awesome if these reports could be exported to ODS/XLS/Sheets format so players could go nuts on creating analysis tools :) "Report analysis tools" could be separate "Mod section" so creators of best tools could be rewarded.
3. Make crop prices dependant of the yields from the map (with some influence from "World Market") - when everybody (player+NPC-s) grows wheat then wheat should be cheaper.
4. Contracts for "sell X amount of Y to Z". Contracts could have different target times: fast ones with higher prices where you basically have to have the crop in the silo/about to harvest it and long ones, where based on contract you can plan your sowing/planting. Didn't fill the contract -> you're fined!

More "technical" issues:
1. Add column based filters and ordering to ALL list/table views. For example select mods for savegame - this is just stupid as it is now. No way to filter out "plows" or "order by download date" or "Filter harvesters + order by price".
2. While dowloading mods we do have mod details, while selecting for savegame, we don't. Add detailed view here too (mod names unfortunately are not always very descriptive).

There's probably more but...
User avatar
this_is_gav
Posts: 1756
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:36 pm

Re: I hate being “that guy” but…

Post by this_is_gav »

I'm as much of a critic of some of GIANTS decisions and implementations as anyone (and certainly some I real are warranted), but equally I like to think I'm constructive in that criticism and balanced and realistic in some of my expectations. So...

Gormett wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:48 am
  • Better graphics
  • Dynamic Terrain
  • Tractor components, parts and damage
  • Working, usable mirrors
  • Stable [realistic] bale physics
  • Better [realistic] attachment system
  • VR support with machinery interaction
Sorry, but that looked poor even by 2015 standards. The crops are disappearing in a chunks of several metres at a time. FS crops have always disappeared in a chunks too, but they look much smaller than in that.

I've just skimmed the videos you posted, but I've not seen any dynamic terrain. The best I saw was plough furrows, and FS has done the same since FS2015 I think it was.

As said, you bring in actual damage and the manufacturers will disappear in droves.

I think seeing a few square bales being stacked in a publicity video is a bit early to call them stable. You can see the whole stack move when the telehandler just nudged them and they looked just as plastic as FS's bales. Again, I just skimmed, but I only saw a single round bale (which was already on its end) being put on a trailer, so again, zero evidence of how realistic the round bales physics are (single round bales are generally perfectly fine in FS).


I'm sure there are some things in that product which GIANTS could look too and say "yeah, that looks good, maybe we should try to do something like that" - such as marking headlands out with the plough, but to state "so I feel like I finally found concrete evidence that all the features players have been asking for have actually been possible since 2015, in a Farming Game if the developer is right" is just plain misleading and completely oversimplifying things.

For all we know this product (even if it has the features you or they claim) might cost £50,000 and need server-grade hardware to run it - certainly if they're running that many screens at once then it wasn't being run on a normal PC.


I'm sure all of the things you list are doable, but if you're going to need a top of the line CPU and two GPUs (one for graphics and one for physics) then you'd eliminate 95% of players and have most of your employees being made redundant.
Gormett
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:21 am

Re: I hate being “that guy” but…

Post by Gormett »

DEERE317 wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:09 am It looks worse than FS15 on low graphics. So not sure how that’s better.
I don't think the extended LOD distance and better AO compared to FS can be considered worse.
DEERE317 wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:09 am Has basically no equipment options.
Maybe because it's supposed to be a trainer for real life jobs. We don't need 60 types of tractors with the same physics and behaviour.
DEERE317 wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:09 am Vehicle damage would result in no/minimal licensed brands for FS.
This is true, although it would be quite immersive to actually change the tires instead of clicking a button in a menu. Or even just for the sake of inspecting and looking at an engine. Racing games do have "door explode" feature that opens everything so you can take a look inside.
DEERE317 wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:09 am Mirrors is no one positioning them correctly, so they work just pointed wrong.
But they are the same as in ETS2 and are actually usable
DEERE317 wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:09 am VR, still niche.
This whole genre is niche but I fail to see why would more immersive options be bad.
DEERE317 wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:09 am Oh and did you notice it’s not a game but a training system? Does it have crop selling, livestock, etc? Also what’s the price.
Yes, I mentioned that in my post. Did you even read what I said ?
Take the liters of crops you're dumping in the selling point and multiply it by the current price, congratulations you have crop selling.
Livestock ? Just make a float value for water, food and make it lose Y value over time. Add integer for the number cows. Spawn X number of cows in the designated area. Wooo, livestock.
DEERE317 wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:09 am And also doesn’t have Multiplayer.
So you did you even watch the video or what ? "Multi Machine Enviroment - work with others" and another separate video specifically dedicated to this feature.

------------


I like how you confirmed my comment about how fans like to argue in absolutes "if other game has this, FS shouldn't have it because the other game has it that way and that's the only way"... anyway
this_is_gav wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:26 pm Sorry, but that looked poor even by 2015 standards. The crops are disappearing in a chunks of several metres at a time. FS crops have always disappeared in a chunks too, but they look much smaller than in that.
I didn't notice a difference between this and FS and you skipped over the extended render distance on foliage. On FS the detail is lost 10m from your player, here the foliage stays sharp even on the opposite side of the field
this_is_gav wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:26 pm I've just skimmed the videos you posted, but I've not seen any dynamic terrain. The best I saw was plough furrows, and FS has done the same since FS2015 I think it was.
I can tell you "just skimmed" the video by the fact that the dynamic terrain is even on the thumbnail and you can clearly see the wheel dropping down into the ridge created by the plow. Farming Simulator still has astroturf even in FS22.
this_is_gav wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:26 pm I think seeing a few square bales being stacked in a publicity video is a bit early to call them stable. You can see the whole stack move when the telehandler just nudged them and they looked just as plastic as FS's bales. Again, I just skimmed, but I only saw a single round bale (which was already on its end) being put on a trailer, so again, zero evidence of how realistic the round bales physics are (single round bales are generally perfectly fine in FS).
I think the fact that this is being sold as professional equipment means it's stable to train people for the real job.
this_is_gav wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:26 pm For all we know this product (even if it has the features you or they claim) might cost £50,000 and need server-grade hardware to run it - certainly if they're running that many screens at once then it wasn't being run on a normal PC.
They do have a desktop package which includes the wheel, screens, wheel and pedals, shifter. No PC included so i think it's safe to say it can run on consumer grade hardware. And modern PCs are capable of running multiple screens at once, no need for server grade hardware, it also depends on the resolution of the screen and at that distance 1080p is sufficient.
https://www.tenstarsimulation.com/simul ... igurations
this_is_gav wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:26 pm I'm sure all of the things you list are doable, but if you're going to need a top of the line CPU and two GPUs (one for graphics and one for physics) then you'd eliminate 95% of players and have most of your employees being made redundant.
But you do need a high spec cpu and gpu for Farming Sim anyway if you want it to look good at high framerates due to nonexistent optimization. We're only now getting multithread support and view culling so it's not like the previous games were made for low end hardware.
Post Reply