Hyper-slow growth, 0 fun, dead game

[fenixguy]

And I think that is kind of what it feels like Giants did for some players. Took a very open game that did not force you into any one or two types of playstyles and now forces you into playing THIER way.

I agree 100%, that's why I think they should add more configurable options for casual and more hard-core players. I've been saying that on here for years. Personally, I think the current version is kind of dumbed-down, but still enjoyable enough.

The biggest takeaway I see with threads like this is how important it is to wait until a new game is out and watch some let's plays or whatever before buying it. That way, if it's not what you want, you haven't wasted any money.

[Luftkopf]

So what is Giants actually allowed to bring to new versions of the franchise if they're not allowed to add features similar to those modders have previously added? A new version of Farm Sim is only valid if it only features improved graphics and basic mechanics? Some people criticise Giants for not having already added features that modders have then made, while others are complaining that Giants IS doing that?

I understand the argument against EXCESSIVE realism, but there is a long distance between a healthy level of verisimilitude, and an obsessions with MAH REELIZM!!!

I found playing vanilla FS19 got too boring and repetitive without seasons. Plant what you want, when you want, nothing matters. Plant now, harvest tomorrow. I would have stopped playing after a few months if I didn't find the Seasons mod, even though it was more detailed that I really wanted. I could have done without the crop rotation feature, and bales rotting away in the rain, but I could live with that, because Seasons gave me a sense of actual time passing, letting me get more into my farms. I don't need an industrial level, technically accurate agriculture simulator, but what Giants have delivered is a nice game that I enjoy.

So what level of realism is valid? Who should have to wait for modders to craft things to fit their tastes? FS19 required me to find mods to make FS the game I wanted, now it seems you have to rely on someone to make mods to get it set up for you. I understand how that is frustrating, but I don't see how that makes it a scam!

Oh don't get me wrong. I understand that Giants added the mods as part of the main game because those mods were well received back in FS19. That's not just a valid decision, it's also a good business practice. But they shouldn't be getting the credit for them.

Anything that they add that some player didn't think of, they get credit for. If they'd added some use for stones other than selling them, that would be worth it but they didn't so it's just a useless addition. If they'd added a temperature gauge so that you couldn't work if you were too cold, that would make changing your outfit some purpose other than aesthetics. However, here's me working in the snow wearing a t-shirt. Even the train rental is a silly idea for the reasons I pointed out.

My point was that Giants created Farming Simulator... NOT FS22. It was the modders who did that and they didn't even get a mention. Instead the people at Giants said "Look what we did!" and charged full price. That's the part that makes it, to paraphrase myself "KIND OF a scam." They even removed the transport missions which gave us something to do and a way to explore the map when we'd done all of our main jobs.

Whether or not they actually improved the graphics is too subjective to say for definite. I know I can't see any difference but others probably do. I can't even go into my own house now and the graphics through the windows is so distorted that even the games in the 1990s would be laughing at them.

When I played FS19, I had almost all of the mods that were brought into FS22. Seasons, Global Company and a good number of the vehicles (though I preferred the Valtra tractors because I could change their colours at will.) I turned off the seasons because I had nothing to do for three days and NOT game days either. I even set it up so that I had four farms all doing different things and trading with each other because I'm a role player.

There is no right or wrong way to play the game. If you want an increased level of realism have at it. Go and have fun with it. If you want to play in real time with a 28 day month, that's why it's there. Even I've been disappointed that I've not seen any deep snow in my current map yet. Just light sprinkling and I'd love to see what it looks like when it really gets going.

I still want to be ABLE to turn it off though. I want to be able to try out the new additions but also think "That part isn't for me, I don't think I'll keep it running."

Sorry for my late reply on this, real life has been getting in the way. I have read all of the thread since then, and I still don’t get it.

I get why your upset the option to play FS the way you enjoy isn’t available, and I support your wish to have it back. It’s a good idea, I think, to have that as an option.

What I don’t understand is your logic regarding the features being stolen from modders. If I’ve understood you right, it would be like saying the only real Mercedes Benz is the 1886 Patent Motorwagen, and that every Mercedes since has only stolen ideas from others, or maybe that every car since then needs to acknowledge every feature they use that someone else used first?

No one holds a patent on the weather, Mother Nature isn’t sending lawyers to collect royalties for depiction of changing seasons in a game, and I don’t see how, just because some very good modders made a depiction of seasons in the game, that that means Giants can’t, or that they have to give credit to someone else for it, even though they have implemented the concept differently!

Similar thing for GlobalCompanies. A superficial resemblance between production chains and GlobalCompanies doesn’t mean they are even remotely similar under the surface. Anyway, like Illinois Farmer, I suspect production chains are closer to how Shaba made his factories than it is to GlobalCompanies.

The way I see Farming Simulator is that Giants build a platform and tools with all the mechanics, and a few basic maps, and a moderate selection of equipment, that can be played standalone, but is open for people to go build mods on. I can’t wait for the new maps, scripts, and equipment that modders will bring. I’m also thankful to Giants for all the small details they’ve brought to the game. From my perspective FS22 is the best yet. I just hope, for your sake, and those who share your play style, that soon someone creates a mod catering to your play style.

[mirceast19]

And I think that is kind of what it feels like Giants did for some players. Took a very open game that did not force you into any one or two types of playstyles and now forces you into playing THIER way.

I agree 100%, that's why I think they should add more configurable options for casual and more hard-core players. I've been saying that on here for years. Personally, I think the current version is kind of dumbed-down, but still enjoyable enough.

The biggest takeaway I see with threads like this is how important it is to wait until a new game is out and watch some let's plays or whatever before buying it. That way, if it's not what you want, you haven't wasted any money.

For this reason, it would be better if, before the launch, the game is tested enough and the new changes, the new directions are announced. Yes, it's interesting to see graphical improvements. Yes, it is interesting to see that the grass has shade. Yes, it is interesting to see that there are Seasons, no matter you play with it or not. But it is big disappointing to receive, again, a game full of bugs, not tested enough for minor things (for example, in the days or hundreds or thousands of hours of tests, no one has ever sold a bale in Erlengrat and no one has seen that the point of sale has changed in 22? What kind of tests do you do, if no one has seen this? I cant understand).

As for the information, in many minutes on youtube and news about the game, no one announce that "Season off" it means that the grains will grow in 10-12 days / months, instead of 1-2 days, so that the community, the ambassadors or whoever tested the game can react "wait, it's wrong, why limit options, change that please". No. We don't know what we buy, we buy a hope about FS15-19, we buy a game full of bugs that we start to test and announce bugs that will be fixed... sometime next months, next year. And we find that the gameplay has changed and we have nothing to do about it. But yes, we got now Academy, in construction, a proof that the game feels the need to communicate us some explanations, because it is moving away from past ideas which we knew, which seemed logical to us in the past.

This shows us that no one in the staff really plays this game for long play, for gameplay, they only tests separate parts of the game for single details, without understanding the whole gameplay, different gameplays, what we like to play for months or years in different ways.

Sorry if I'm upset and pessimistic right now.

[Iconia Star]

[

Sorry for my late reply on this, real life has been getting in the way. I have read all of the thread since then, and I still don’t get it.

I get why your upset the option to play FS the way you enjoy isn’t available, and I support your wish to have it back. It’s a good idea, I think, to have that as an option.

What I don’t understand is your logic regarding the features being stolen from modders. If I’ve understood you right, it would be like saying the only real Mercedes Benz is the 1886 Patent Motorwagen, and that every Mercedes since has only stolen ideas from others, or maybe that every car since then needs to acknowledge every feature they use that someone else used first...

Similar thing for GlobalCompanies. A superficial resemblance between production chains and GlobalCompanies doesn’t mean they are even remotely similar under the surface. Anyway, like Illinois Farmer, I suspect production chains are closer to how Shaba made his factories than it is to GlobalCompanies.

The way I see Farming Simulator is that Giants build a platform and tools with all the mechanics, and a few basic maps, and a moderate selection of equipment, that can be played standalone, but is open for people to go build mods on. I can’t wait for the new maps, scripts, and equipment that modders will bring. I’m also thankful to Giants for all the small details they’ve brought to the game. From my perspective FS22 is the best yet. I just hope, for your sake, and those who share your play style, that soon someone creates a mod catering to your play style.

If you wrote a book, a song or produced a movie and I modified it then took credit for the whole thing would you not be upset?
Or if I took that song and changed the tempo but left the words completely intact then took credit for writing it, how would you feel now?

The majority of the mods that I mentioned from FS19 aren't just superficial. They operate in EXACTLY the same way. Even the crow sound effect which a certain other party pointed out is just a sound effect and isn't proof that said mod was "stolen". Listen to the "new" sound. It's identical. you might not be able to tell unless you have exceptional pitch but they are. I know that's not proof, but it is suspicious.

How many lawsuits have you heard about where a performer has used different words to the same tune? Some that are "nearly identical" and some that are "superficial."

It's written in history who contributed to the light bulb. We acknowledge that when we say "Tomas Edison DIDN'T invent it." or "Alexander Graham Bell DIDN'T invent the telephone"

You're "...thankful to Giants for all the small details they've brought to the game." I'm sorry, I'm going to use your own words against you here. Giants shouldn't be adding "small details." Their details should outweigh everything that modders bring in. Add the mods... Yaaay, the majority of players liked that one. But we already had it. Why did we pay a pile of money to get it again?

It's not that I want the old way back exactly the way it was. I want to be able to see a difference between what I had versus what comes next without having to learn an entirely new way of playing. Kind of like the differences between Assassin's Creed 2 and Assassin's Creed Brotherhood. For the most part identical but with several completely new concepts added in by the developers (and I hate to give any praise to Ubisoft ). Not because players wanted it. Because the developers wanted it.

What do Giants want now? to spend time figuring something new that even the players haven't thought of yet? Or to take the easy way out, add stuff that players invent and take the credit? They're a decent company. Not many game developers even allow players to modify their product. But they shouldn't be fawned over. They can make mistakes just like anybody else.

I'm waiting for the release of "Horizon: Forbidden West" due out in a few months. A sequel to "Horizon: Zero Dawn". I played Zero Dawn. when the new one comes in, do you think I want to spend my time fighting a Thunderjaw or do I want it to be new? (You'll only get that reference if you know what a Thunderjaw is and I don't want to give any spoilers.) But I don't want the game mechanics to be so different that I have to spend the next year learning how to play all over again.

And I'm sure someone will come up with a mod to bring growth (or other aspects) back to a more casual player. if I knew the first thing about modding, I'd do it myself. But modders shouldn't have to do that. It should have been there from the start.

And I can't believe you got me talking about this again, you big meaniehead

[gordon861]

This shows us that no one in the staff really plays this game for long play, for gameplay, they only tests separate parts of the game for single details, without understanding the whole gameplay, different gameplays, what we like to play for months or years in different ways.

This is why I have said elsewhere that it feels like multiple teams were working on the game in sperate silos. One team was messing with the economy and thought that with the existing growth speeds but didn't know that a Seasons-lite was being forced on everyone which meant that the economy they were balancing no longer worked.

[blue_painted]

@Iconia Star -- the crow sound mod, by ViperGTS96, uses the sound files that GIANTS put in the base game but did not use. You can check this by examining the mod and you'll find one modDesc.xml, one icon.dds and one lua script file ... and no sound files.

[Iconia Star]

@Iconia Star -- the crow sound mod, by ViperGTS96, uses the sound files that GIANTS put in the base game but did not use. You can check this by examining the mod and you'll find one modDesc.xml, one icon.dds and one lua script file ... and no sound files.

I wouldn't know how to examine the mod file and I have no idea what a lua script is, but thanks for letting me know that.

[RedJester]

I agree 100%, that's why I think they should add more configurable options for casual and more hard-core players. I've been saying that on here for years. Personally, I think the current version is kind of dumbed-down, but still enjoyable enough.

The biggest takeaway I see with threads like this is how important it is to wait until a new game is out and watch some let's plays or whatever before buying it. That way, if it's not what you want, you haven't wasted any money.

Giants still got my money gladly. Regardless of this release, they are one of the few on console that encourage and support mods from and for the community and that hits a lot of points in my book so I had no problem adding them to the very short list of company's/developers that I will purchase games from Day 1 full price.

As to the Seasons issue, without large scale testing, I don't know if they would have known the backlash basing the game around it would have caused. I did not hear anything about an open beta or anything like that but, I was not really paying that much attention either. If they had, then this issue was underreported or ignored.

[blue_painted]

@Iconia Star -- the crow sound mod, by ViperGTS96, uses the sound files that GIANTS put in the base game but did not use. You can check this by examining the mod and you'll find one modDesc.xml, one icon.dds and one lua script file ... and no sound files.

I wouldn't know how to examine the mod file and I have no idea what a lua script is, but thanks for letting me know that.

Just to be clear, you are saying that you wouldn't actually be able to tell if the code and/or assets of a mod was "stolen" or not, and yet you are making that assumption?

[Iconia Star]

Just to be clear, you are saying that you wouldn't actually be able to tell if the code and/or assets of a mod was "stolen" or not, and yet you are making that assumption?

About that particular mod, yes. That was an assumption. If the sound files were already in the game folders and it was better than what was being used then why wasn't it already being used?

If you hear the same tune in multiple songs but the performers of each are taking the full credit for writing their respective songs, is it not natural to assume that one or more actually stole the tune? Or if you see the same methods of cooking used in two different recipes are claiming full credit for inventing those methods is it not reasonable to assume that one has stolen the idea?

As I pointed out. Giants created the first version of Farming simulator. Am I to now understand that they have not actually created a new version since they started allowing the mods but instead just add other people's work into base games of future version and then taking full credit for that work?

Instead of understanding that I accepted a correction in my knowledge gap, why did you make it sound so unreasonable for me to make a mistake about ONE particular part of every response I've made since this whole thing began?

Does that automatically mean that EVERY other part that I said about the mods is incorrect? What about the fact that the beehives (third one on the list I believe) are EXACTLY the same as they were from the mods in FS19. same size, textures, number of boxes, colours of boxes and the pixel art used for the bee particles. That was just a coincidence, right? Or Giants had already planned to have bees they just hadn't implemented them... for some reason.

Giants still got my money gladly. Regardless of this release, they are one of the few on console that encourage and support mods from and for the community and that hits a lot of points in my book so I had no problem adding them to the very short list of company's/developers that I will purchase games from Day 1 full price.

As to the Seasons issue, without large scale testing, I don't know if they would have known the backlash basing the game around it would have caused. I did not hear anything about an open beta or anything like that but, I was not really paying that much attention either. If they had, then this issue was underreported or ignored.

Good for you and them I guess. I've never said you should stop sending them money if that's what you want to do. It's a bit disconcerting that you "gladly" send them money (Gee, I'm reluctant to send money to companies so that they send me clothes or food but I still do it from time to time) but that's your thing. You want to throw your money at a computer screen, it's your money. I'll always think twice about sending Giants money from now on. That's MY decision.

And for the "seasons issue" Why WASN'T it tested large scale? It had already proven itself to be the kind of mod that mostly experienced users would make successful. The one method of guaranteeing that your game is going to annoy users and cause them to reconsider purchasing your games in the future is by sending out the game untested and filled with bugs. Or making it so difficult that newer customers can't get used to it.

Why do you think ACE Combat 5 came with simplified controls? Could it be because the developers understood that not everyone could fly a plane like an expert? What about Kingdoms of Amalur with it's story mode difficulty so that players who want to focus more on the story than the combat at least until they get used to the combat system of the game and can increase the difficulty settings later?

The issue is a mixture of things that we already had in the previous version, game difficulty being so hard to understand that newer player just don't enjoy it very much and Giants forcing players to play the game THEIR way in a world where it SHOULD be up to the players to decide what works for THEM.

You know that's one of the reasons you can turn off traffic offenses in Euro Truck Simulator. So that the players can decide if they want to go charging through Europe at 93mph.

Are Giants not experienced enough to understand that everyone has their own methods, styles and preferences?

[Illinois Farmer]

So assuming stupid stuff. Giants put in docent options to be turned on or off and different starting modes. Also wait for an update to drop and some more stuff might change. If you hate playing the game so much then stop one playing it until the update and see what happens. For me, it is called a simulator, so it should similate more realistic gameplay just blake farming is irl.

[blue_painted]

Just to be clear, you are saying that you wouldn't actually be able to tell if the code and/or assets of a mod was "stolen" or not, and yet you are making that assumption?

About that particular mod, yes. That was an assumption. If the sound files were already in the game folders and it was better than what was being used then why wasn't it already being used?

If you hear the same tune in multiple songs but the performers of each are taking the full credit for writing their respective songs, is it not natural to assume that one or more actually stole the tune? Or if you see the same methods of cooking used in two different recipes are claiming full credit for inventing those methods is it not reasonable to assume that one has stolen the idea?

As I pointed out. Giants created the first version of Farming simulator. Am I to now understand that they have not actually created a new version since they started allowing the mods but instead just add other people's work into base games of future version and then taking full credit for that work?

Instead of understanding that I accepted a correction in my knowledge gap, why did you make it sound so unreasonable for me to make a mistake about ONE particular part of every response I've made since this whole thing began?

Does that automatically mean that EVERY other part that I said about the mods is incorrect? What about the fact that the beehives (third one on the list I believe) are EXACTLY the same as they were from the mods in FS19. same size, textures, number of boxes, colours of boxes and the pixel art used for the bee particles. That was just a coincidence, right? Or Giants had already planned to have bees they just hadn't implemented them... for some reason.

Let's start with the "stolen" idea. For something to be "stolen" in the world of code, it really comes down to "Did GIANTS take the code and assets of a mod and copy+paste that into the game?" so unless you are able to look at the code and assets of a mod, how can you ever make that judgement? Of course, when it comes to "asset-reuse which could possibly, just maybe considered to be "stealing" you have to look no further than the many mod maps, that use GIANTS own assets and code. The same applies to the example of bees: bees aren't the invention of the mod-maker, nor of GIANTS. For this to be stolen, to be EXACTLY the same as they were from the mods in FS19. same size, textures, number of boxes, colours of boxes you would have to be able to examine the code and assets and compare to the base game, which by your own admission, you cannot do.

Then look at the "claiming full credit for inventing" - can you point to a statement from GIANTS where they do make that claim? I can point you to an example of a mod-maker's point of view, over one very popular mod: here and please take particular note of TheSeb's comments on that thread.

Thirdly, and the broader issue, is it "stealing" to take an idea and develop it? Taking your own song scenario, is it stealing if two people have made songs about love? Person A meeting person B under a silvery moon? Is it stealing if the two songs are, say, reggae with the distinct bass and rhythm lines? Did Procul Harum steal from Bach? Are all the covers of "Yesterday" stolen from The Beatles?

And please note also the pejorative word "stolen" which implies malice on the part of the thief. Is that really what you mean?

[Ro4dKi11]

Giants really screwed up, and are too busy counting all the cash they conned out of us to care.

[Iconia Star]

Let's start with the "stolen" idea. For something to be "stolen" in the world of code, it really comes down to "Did GIANTS take the code and assets of a mod and copy+paste that into the game?" so unless you are able to look at the code and assets of a mod, how can you ever make that judgement? Of course, when it comes to "asset-reuse which could possibly, just maybe considered to be "stealing" you have to look no further than the many mod maps, that use GIANTS own assets and code. The same applies to the example of bees: bees aren't the invention of the mod-maker, nor of GIANTS. For this to be stolen, to be EXACTLY the same as they were from the mods in FS19. same size, textures, number of boxes, colours of boxes you would have to be able to examine the code and assets and compare to the base game, which by your own admission, you cannot do.

Then look at the "claiming full credit for inventing" - can you point to a statement from GIANTS where they do make that claim? I can point you to an example of a mod-maker's point of view, over one very popular mod: here and please take particular note of TheSeb's comments on that thread.

Thirdly, and the broader issue, is it "stealing" to take an idea and develop it? Taking your own song scenario, is it stealing if two people have made songs about love? Person A meeting person B under a silvery moon? Is it stealing if the two songs are, say, reggae with the distinct bass and rhythm lines? Did Procul Harum steal from Bach? Are all the covers of "Yesterday" stolen from The Beatles?

And please note also the pejorative word "stolen" which implies malice on the part of the thief. Is that really what you mean?
[/quote]

I'll start with the Beatles and Bach examples just because it's the quickest to answer. No they did not steal those songs, they asked for permission from the owners of the respective copyright owners and gave credit to the original writers and were granted the rights.

Having read TheSeb's comment. I'm not sure if it's really relevant what one person says (considering that we've already established that said user is part of a team where at least one member is employed by or affiliated with Giants) it doesn't make me believe any differently by the way. To me It's not enough to convince me. So he or she doesn't consider it theft of his or her original mod. That's up to the individual in question. We can't know what the others think unless they give their own input (one person is too small a sample size).

I Don't NEED to be able to look at the code of a pixelated bee or the beehive to see the similarities between it and a previous version of that pixelated bee. I have eyes and I can compare them visually. I could Even take a screenshot of the bee particles from both FS19 and FS22, paste them into editing software and compare them pixel by pixel. I also never said that the mod maker "invented" bees I said they made the original mod.

The AI workers driving tractors across the map and delivering goods is still just a modification of the GPS mod. The same goes for any other mod that was brought into the main game.

I don't believe I have to say this AGAIN but this is the last time I will, if you don't read, listen and understand this time, that's on you...

I see NOTHING wrong with Giants modifying a mod. A mod is after all a modification to a game that Giants produced. It is, however just a mod of a mod. That is all!

I also think you know exactly what I mean by "stealing" a mod otherwise you wouldn't have used so many variations of the idea of what can or cannot be considered stealing. Is it just that you WANT me to be wrong? Or DON'T want Giants to be wrong? Or is there something else that's causing you confusion in that regard?

In terms of coding a game the theft of an idea doesn't HAVE to be a copy/paste of the original code. It's just a copy of the idea and doesn't require malicious intent.

"We got the idea for Lara Croft from Indiana Jones and used the same concept." That's not something malicious. It's something that made Core some money. Sainsbury's didn't look at Walmart and say "Oh we can't open a supermarket because they already did." They "stole" the idea because it was something that worked. Neither of those needed to be malicious but neither were they original ideas.

Stealing an idea that doesn't have a patent, is, of course not illegal but it is still stealing an idea. Even if you improve on the idea. If you remember my mentioning of Alexander Graham Bell getting credit for inventing the telephone for many years. He still "stole" the idea from someone who couldn't afford to pay for the patent.

It is my opinion that when Giants cancelled FS21 at the last minute they rushed through FS22 and grabbing as many mods as possible was just the easiest way for them to do that.

[Illinois Farmer]

First, your take is ridiculous and arrogant you can't even see that your wrong. You need to look deeper than just superficial when claiming someone is stealing stuff. You bought up the accusations and every take is as bad as the next. Also the GPS by whopster doesn't allow you to let the ai down the road on their own. Once again another bad assumption. GPS allows you to control the speed by keep the tractor straight in the field. You still have to turn at the ends. Just like it does irl. You write essays responses filled with hot air about bad takes.