Imagine having those graphics!

Stegei
GIANTS Software | CTO
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Re: Imagine having those graphics!

Post by Stegei »

ipodule wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 5:15 pm Your game engine barely works at running your own game so I'm not sure what you speak of when you mention "features". You use your own engine so you don't have to pay to use somebody else's engine.
I'm not talking about our engine being superior to other engines and being better for other games. I'm purely referring to that our engine is better suited for Farming Simulator than others. Also the cost argument is not really an argument. Developing our own engine is not exactly cheap either.

Some of the features I was referring to:
-Dynamic and persistent foliage system
-Dynamic and persistent terrain changes
-Dynamic and persistent placing of material on the ground (used for tipping material on the ground, snow and bunker silos)
-Switching from anywhere to anywhere on the map with next to no delay
-Advanced vehicle physics with CVT simulation, with complicated articulation, proper integration with other physics objects, etc.
-Dynamic and persistent wood cutting
-Dynamic and persistent placing of buildings that properly interacts with vehicle navigation, audio reverb, etc.
-Advanced vehicle navigation with support for trailers, limited steering angles, various steering geometry, dynamically changing worlds, etc.
-Modding support (being able to freely release all the tools needed, support script mods that can even adjust most of the core gameplay logic, support on consoles, no huge bake times, modular and easily editable/readable file formats, ...)

And all of those features need to be supported in multiplayer too, so the required data that needs to be exchanged has to be as small as possible with smart delta updating, etc.
norfolk farmer
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Re: Imagine having those graphics!

Post by norfolk farmer »

There are many things in how the game and company are that I'd like too see change but to say the engine barely works is a ridiculous comment as if I found it to be that way I would not have put in all the hours I have on it and would have walked away along while a go.
Last edited by norfolk farmer on Thu May 12, 2022 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ipodule
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Re: Imagine having those graphics!

Post by ipodule »

Stegei wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 1:43 pm I'm not talking about our engine being superior to other engines and being better for other games. I'm purely referring to that our engine is better suited for Farming Simulator than others. Also the cost argument is not really an argument. Developing our own engine is not exactly cheap either.

Some of the features I was referring to:
-Dynamic and persistent foliage system
-Dynamic and persistent terrain changes
-Dynamic and persistent placing of material on the ground (used for tipping material on the ground, snow and bunker silos)
-Switching from anywhere to anywhere on the map with next to no delay
-Advanced vehicle physics with CVT simulation, with complicated articulation, proper integration with other physics objects, etc.
-Dynamic and persistent wood cutting
-Dynamic and persistent placing of buildings that properly interacts with vehicle navigation, audio reverb, etc.
-Advanced vehicle navigation with support for trailers, limited steering angles, various steering geometry, dynamically changing worlds, etc.
-Modding support (being able to freely release all the tools needed, support script mods that can even adjust most of the core gameplay logic, support on consoles, no huge bake times, modular and easily editable/readable file formats, ...)

And all of those features need to be supported in multiplayer too, so the required data that needs to be exchanged has to be as small as possible with smart delta updating, etc.
Let's have a look at a couple of those things. "Dynamic and persistent terrain changes" There is no "dynamic" terrain since your 10 tonne vehicle does no damage or alteration to the terrain. You can manipulate the terrain in the editor but it's so clumsy you can easily end up with sharp edges and the deformation done by placed objects is, at best, terrible. Havok engine has dynamic mud and dynamic terrain deformation, this game does not. "Dynamic and persistent wood cutting", that's a joke right? Have you tried cutting down a tree in FS22 or loading logs? "Advanced vehicle physics", again what? Snowrunner, Forza, GTA, et-al all have those running in their respective engines and after watching a tractor get flipped over multiple times by a pallet I'm not sure you understand what the word "physics" means! There is also no simulation of 4WD, diff locks, tyre pressure, tyre deformation, etc, etc. "Advanced vehicle navigation with support for trailers, limited steering angles, various steering geometry, dynamically changing worlds" Again, the world does not change dynamically at all. It changes colour, and it gets dark (let's not get into the atrocious night lighting) and you place textures on the ground to make it look like something is being ploughed but it is not "dynamic".
Stegei
GIANTS Software | CTO
Posts: 1787
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:51 am

Re: Imagine having those graphics!

Post by Stegei »

Of course there are always engines/games that do certain things better than what we do. But did you see any game that does all of the above?
Have you been able to deform the terrain, cut a tree or place a new building in GTA?
Have you been able to change the foliage in Forza, come back 2 days later and still see the same changes?
Have you tried to load 30 logs on a car in Forza and still see the car driving as expected?
Snowrunner has local non-persistent terrain deformations, but can you also change it more and keep it stored in the savegame and have it synced in multiplayer?
Can you have a vehicle drive from A to B in Snowrunner?

Our physics simulation actually has a complicated differential simulation with support for limited slip differentials, locked differentials, 4WD, 2WD, etc. The base game does not expose changing differential settings manually due to limited integration time and keeping the game simple. If you want those features, use one of the mods that enables those. But it's the engine that enables those mods to make those features possible.
Also our worlds are indeed very much changing when you place new buildings, deform the terrain, plant and cut trees, etc.

You do interpret "dynamic" in a wrong way. In this context, it simply means it is not defined when the game is loaded/created but can be changed by the user later on. This prevents many techniques from being used.
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DEERE317
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Re: Imagine having those graphics!

Post by DEERE317 »

I have something shocking for anyone fawning over Unreal and it's "abilities"

A different game I follow on YouTube (Railroads Online!) is based on it. And something that we've all came to love about FS, terraforming was a no go when asked about if it was going to be implemented due to engine limitations among other difficulties (such as not having buildings and tracks update in real time like FS buildings do in FS due to engine limits)
So maybe GIANTS engine isn't useless...

And I've yet to see any of the "issues" that people have (that generally aren't actually described) with it, it's not optimized the best, has it's quirks, but is extremely stable (especially a few months after release, a problem of all video games) and handles the error ridden dumpster fires that some "modders" release without crashing spectacularly and generally functions good enough to not be an issue for 99.9% of use cases where it functions well enough for a good experience.
And seeing as what's been done with it via mods it is extremely versatile.
FS15 & FS19 Platinum Edition PC (and War Thunder, Gaijin is way worse than GIANTS ever has been accused of being)
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Dezza69
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Re: Imagine having those graphics!

Post by Dezza69 »

...geez ... Giants devs are very patient people.

Kudos to your efforts making a fantastic and varied game which so many enjoy and spend many, many hours on.

Happy Farming, virtually!! :lol:
SimulatedFarmer
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Re: Imagine having those graphics!

Post by SimulatedFarmer »

Dezza69 wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 11:46 pm ...geez ... Giants devs are very patient people.

Kudos to your efforts making a fantastic and varied game which so many enjoy and spend many, many hours on.

Happy Farming, virtually!! :lol:
Agreed. It was a slightly bumpy start, but I am amazed at how much has been done so quickly. It’s hard to be gracious when being attacked. Thank you.
ipodule
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Re: Imagine having those graphics!

Post by ipodule »

Stegei wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 9:08 pm Of course there are always engines/games that do certain things better than what we do. But did you see any game that does all of the above?
Have you been able to deform the terrain, cut a tree or place a new building in GTA?
Have you been able to change the foliage in Forza, come back 2 days later and still see the same changes?
Have you tried to load 30 logs on a car in Forza and still see the car driving as expected?
Snowrunner has local non-persistent terrain deformations, but can you also change it more and keep it stored in the save game and have it synced in multiplayer?
Can you have a vehicle drive from A to B in Snowrunner?

Our physics simulation actually has a complicated differential simulation with support for limited slip differentials, locked differentials, 4WD, 2WD, etc. The base game does not expose changing differential settings manually due to limited integration time and keeping the game simple. If you want those features, use one of the mods that enables those. But it's the engine that enables those mods to make those features possible.
Also our worlds are indeed very much changing when you place new buildings, deform the terrain, plant and cut trees, etc.
You're digging a hole for yourself old sock and it's only getting deeper. You claim to implement diff lock etc but it's not user facing to keep things simple? Is this not a simulator? Your tractors only have minimal differentiation, in their power and their weight. Your engine is essentially [if tractor has X power, can pull Y implement]. Additionally, none of your tractors have systems modelling (you know, the things controlled by all those buttons and levers and screens).

I'm assuming the A to B comment is about getting the AI to drive somewhere, I've got news for you buddy, your game can't do that either, as the AI is flummoxed by even the smallest obstacle in their way. you have to turn off AI traffic to even give it a fighting chance at not getting stuck. Coming back to the trees again for one more swing.... I would love to watch you or another dev from Giants load 30 trees onto a log loader using your built in vehicles. The physics are appalling and the modelling is a complete joke as trees simply don't sit on top of one another and bounce around or flip the trailer because they won't sit still.

The things you cite as strengths are, in fact, meaningless since they are so poorly implemented, as a project manager I would look at your work and ask "what's the point"? Why have tree cutting when you can't cut trees? Why have terrain modelling when the implementation is so poor? Why have rain when it doesn't make anything wet? Why have a shop that nobody visits? The list goes on. I appreciate you engaging which is remarkable for a company that communicates nothing to its customers, but it's clear that as a company, your head is in the sand but you got all the money in spite of it, so well done.

[ as for the dude who mentioned Railroads Online, that game is made by one person and is early access, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ]
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this_is_gav
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Re: Imagine having those graphics!

Post by this_is_gav »

ipodule wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:21 am You're digging a hole for yourself old sock and it's only getting deeper.
I don't think Stegei's the one digging the hole...

Just let it go, for your sake and the rest of us. It's good to have one of the devs discussing the game - the least you can do is be civil and constructive about it.
SicknoteFarms
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Re: Imagine having those graphics!

Post by SicknoteFarms »

That game doesn't look very realistic, they went through fallen riders on the ground like they were sheep/cows/pigs.
ipodule
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Re: Imagine having those graphics!

Post by ipodule »

this_is_gav wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:14 am
ipodule wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 10:21 am You're digging a hole for yourself old sock and it's only getting deeper.
I don't think Stegei's the one digging the hole...

Just let it go, for your sake and the rest of us. It's good to have one of the devs discussing the game - the least you can do is be civil and constructive about it.
For the sake of the rest of you? What is the personal risk or cost to you? That developer is here responding to comment that I have made, not to you or others. If said developer is going to big up the "features" of their game then said features had better not be demonstrably terrible. Like, of all things, cutting down a tree. If you don't like it, feel free to walk on by.
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this_is_gav
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Re: Imagine having those graphics!

Post by this_is_gav »

ipodule wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 12:11 pm For the sake of the rest of you? What is the personal risk or cost to you? That developer is here responding to comment that I have made, not to you or others. If said developer is going to big up the "features" of their game then said features had better not be demonstrably terrible. Like, of all things, cutting down a tree. If you don't like it, feel free to walk on by.
We need to encourage the devs to talk more and if they're attacked every time they do then it's hardly going to make the situation any better.
Fidodido85
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Re: Imagine having those graphics!

Post by Fidodido85 »

I think that communication should always be open and fair. Every game (engine) has its pro's and cons. Overall is FS22 a game with some nice features. And they're still developing. I play the FS series since FS13 an when i see where they came from and are now, i think they reached something nice. But it is a fact that you never can satisfy everyone. The launch of fs22 was not flawless, but they're doing their best to solve any problems. Could the communication be better on this forum? Yes. But there are other options like discord, and others
Last edited by Fidodido85 on Fri May 13, 2022 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DEERE317
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Re: Imagine having those graphics!

Post by DEERE317 »

Nice to that the spam accounts of FS hating have got even more common… time to activate the foe list. :lol:
FS15 & FS19 Platinum Edition PC (and War Thunder, Gaijin is way worse than GIANTS ever has been accused of being)
FS Comunity Trader: https://fs19communitytrader.freeforums.net/
Desktop: i5-9400f, RTX 2060, 8gb RAM, 256gb SSD.
Laptop: Pentium Silver N5000, UHD605, 4gb RAM, 1tb HDD.
Deere, Fendt, Claas, and sometimes the rest of Agco.
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robbyb2203
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Re: Imagine having those graphics!

Post by robbyb2203 »

raran wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 9:30 am But graphics smaphics, what we really need is a surface like Snowrunner.
Snowrunner physics and ground is exactly what we need,that would take this game on a whole different level
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