Mod "unique _normal and _specular/_vmask" clarification

[JRock]

Am trying to get clarification on the use of unique _normal and _specular/_vmask texture mappings that seems to be required in a mod by Giants.

Have tried to submit a placeable mod production to the mod hub, but to this point have gotten contradictory reviews by Giants' mod review team.

To explain, in one submission was told could NOT use the vehicleShader with color mask, which requires at minimum a _specular texture map, and also since it does not apply the required snow/frost to the mod. Fixed that that issue per Giants' suggestions by utilizing the placeableShader ,which has the ability to apply snow/frost, and then had resubmitted.

With the resubmission and appropriate changes made, now Giants' mod review team tells me that need to remove the placeableShader and use the vehicleShader with color mask and to apply an appropriate unique _normal and _specular/_vmask texture mapping So confused right now!!! Which is it!!!??

I understand what is required with using the vehicleShader compared to the placeableShader. What I don't seem to understand is why is there a necessity for both a unique _normal and _specular/_vmask texture map in comparison to which shader is used?? Let alone not being able to use the placeableShader in an effort to have the required snow/frost applied to the mod??

If could seriously get some clarification on the proper use of (I suppose) shaders in general and when unique _normal and _specular/_vmask texture mappings are required??? In addition, whether or not the snow/frost on a placeable mod production is also required.

I consider myself to be a fairly competent person to understand how things like this works, but have to say, this here has really got me stumped. This is not my first rodeo for a mod submission.

There seems to be a noticeable degree of contradiction in the Giants' mod review team and would REALLY like someone to clarify all this wasted time of back forth and further delaying things.

Thanks for any consideration in advance.

[XPModder]

Sad to hear that you have such a bad experience.
Im not from Giants, just another modder myself, so cant give you an "official" reply, but then getting a reply from Giants on this forum nearly never happens afaik...

In relation to your issue:
The first response I can totally understand. If it is a placeable, it should use the placeable shader and not the vehicle shader.
The second response also has me confused. Why they are telling you to use a vehicle shader on a placeable I dont get.
Sadly mod reviews seem to be quite different depending on which person does it, or at least thats what it seems like...

As for normal and specular maps, you should definitely have normal and specular maps for your building as they do add a lot of detail. In general you should always have normal and specular/vmask textures for any model you make for the game, regardless of the shader used. The one exception to this is vehicles that use the material system built into the game. Basically the game has a number of predefined textures (painted metal, chrome, rubber, etc) including normal and specular maps and you can make use of them by moving the UVs of the relevant faces into a specific location. Where as normally you would have all your faces in a single UV square (coordingates 0,0 to 1,1), you can move your UVs or parts of them outside of that into other "UV squares" so to say, and with the vehicle shader each one of these has a specific material mapped to it. So eg UVs in the area between coordinates 1,1 and 2,2 have one material mapped to them and UVs in the area between 0,1 and 1,2 would have a different material mapped to them.
The colorMask attributes in the vehicle shader can then be used to set the color of eg the painted metal predefined texture. This is how vehicles with color choices in the shop work. The color you choose in the shop gets applied to one of the color mask attributes of the vehicle shader. This changes the color of the UVs in the corresponding area. UVs in other areas are unaffected...
All of this however only applies to the vehicle shader.
Afaik the placeable shader does not have access to these predefined materials.
For your placeable building, which is NOT a vehicle, you should therefore be using the placeable shader and a set of diffuse, normal and specular/vmask textures.
Creating a normal map for your texture is usually pretty easy. Many image editing programs have ways to do that relatively automatically. I am using Paint.NET for pretty much all image editing I do and it has a plugin available that does normal maps. With that its just a case of opening the diffuse texture and clicking on the plugin. The plugin then generates a normal map for the diffuse texture and allows adjusting of a few values. Then just save as a _normal file and convert to dds...
Specular/vmask is a bit more tricky to do, as for those there are no simple one-click tools available, as the information cant really be taken directly from the diffuse texture. In the specular/vmask texture each channel has a separate meaning and they also differ between vehicle and building. So eg for vehicles the blue channel determines how dirt settles on the vehicle, which is not a thing for buildings, so the blue channel in a specular for a building does something else.
You want a "unique" normal and specular map for a building, because it doesnt really make sense to use one for a different building. Normal maps are used by the game to make something that is actually a flat surface look more 3d depending on the texture. So eg on wooden beams or planks the normal map will make it appear to actually have a rough 3d surface with like cracks etc while the normal map for a metal surface is much different as the metal is more flat and uniform. So using a normal map from some other building would look very weird unless the UVs of your building happen to line up exactly with what the original building had. The specular/vmask controls the smoothness and metalness of the UVs, so how reflective and shiny it is. So that would also look very weird if eg a part of your building that is made of wooden planks ends up with a specular for glass or chrome, as you would have the wood texture, but it would be super shiny and reflective.

So in summary, I would definitely advise you to make normal and specular maps for your building and use the placeable shader.

Hope I could help

[TheSuBBie]

you should therefore be using the placeable shader

Shouldn't the buildingShader be used instead, as far as I understand it the placeableShader is normally used on smaller objects

[JRock]

Sad to hear that you have such a bad experience.
Im not from Giants, just another modder myself, so cant give you an "official" reply, but then getting a reply from Giants on this forum nearly never happens afaik...

In relation to your issue:
The first response I can totally understand. If it is a placeable, it should use the placeable shader and not the vehicle shader.
The second response also has me confused. Why they are telling you to use a vehicle shader on a placeable I dont get.
Sadly mod reviews seem to be quite different depending on which person does it, or at least thats what it seems like...

As for normal and specular maps, you should definitely have normal and specular maps for your building as they do add a lot of detail. In general you should always have normal and specular/vmask textures for any model you make for the game, regardless of the shader used. The one exception to this is vehicles that use the material system built into the game. Basically the game has a number of predefined textures (painted metal, chrome, rubber, etc) including normal and specular maps and you can make use of them by moving the UVs of the relevant faces into a specific location. Where as normally you would have all your faces in a single UV square (coordingates 0,0 to 1,1), you can move your UVs or parts of them outside of that into other "UV squares" so to say, and with the vehicle shader each one of these has a specific material mapped to it. So eg UVs in the area between coordinates 1,1 and 2,2 have one material mapped to them and UVs in the area between 0,1 and 1,2 would have a different material mapped to them.
The colorMask attributes in the vehicle shader can then be used to set the color of eg the painted metal predefined texture. This is how vehicles with color choices in the shop work. The color you choose in the shop gets applied to one of the color mask attributes of the vehicle shader. This changes the color of the UVs in the corresponding area. UVs in other areas are unaffected...
All of this however only applies to the vehicle shader.
Afaik the placeable shader does not have access to these predefined materials.
For your placeable building, which is NOT a vehicle, you should therefore be using the placeable shader and a set of diffuse, normal and specular/vmask textures.
Creating a normal map for your texture is usually pretty easy. Many image editing programs have ways to do that relatively automatically. I am using Paint.NET for pretty much all image editing I do and it has a plugin available that does normal maps. With that its just a case of opening the diffuse texture and clicking on the plugin. The plugin then generates a normal map for the diffuse texture and allows adjusting of a few values. Then just save as a _normal file and convert to dds...
Specular/vmask is a bit more tricky to do, as for those there are no simple one-click tools available, as the information cant really be taken directly from the diffuse texture. In the specular/vmask texture each channel has a separate meaning and they also differ between vehicle and building. So eg for vehicles the blue channel determines how dirt settles on the vehicle, which is not a thing for buildings, so the blue channel in a specular for a building does something else.
You want a "unique" normal and specular map for a building, because it doesnt really make sense to use one for a different building. Normal maps are used by the game to make something that is actually a flat surface look more 3d depending on the texture. So eg on wooden beams or planks the normal map will make it appear to actually have a rough 3d surface with like cracks etc while the normal map for a metal surface is much different as the metal is more flat and uniform. So using a normal map from some other building would look very weird unless the UVs of your building happen to line up exactly with what the original building had. The specular/vmask controls the smoothness and metalness of the UVs, so how reflective and shiny it is. So that would also look very weird if eg a part of your building that is made of wooden planks ends up with a specular for glass or chrome, as you would have the wood texture, but it would be super shiny and reflective.

So in summary, I would definitely advise you to make normal and specular maps for your building and use the placeable shader.

Hope I could help

Hello there!!! That was a pretty long-winded response and I can appreciate you trying to explain. I should have been a tad more upfront that I am aware of everything you just described. What is still unclear to me at this point is what direction I need to go with ensuring that the next mod submission doesn't get rejected Sure, I can go ahead and apply the appropriate unique _normal and _specular/_vmask texture maps (which I still feel based on the design of the model does not need it) that still doesn't ensure that Giants' mod review team will pass it finally!!

Would really be nice if Giants' mod review team would chime in more to clear up matters like this so as not to waste valuable time on both sides of this mod testing/review process.

Suppose that I will go thru the motions and apply unique _normal and _specular/_vmask texture maps to all facets of the model and to apply what should be the appropriate shader and hope like crazy that it does not get rejected AGAIN and otherwise waste more valuable and unnecessary time.

[JRock]

you should therefore be using the placeable shader

Shouldn't the buildingShader be used instead, as far as I understand it the placeableShader is normally used on smaller objects

It has not been suggested to me that the buildingShader should be used. Most likely since the placeable production isn't really a building, I suppose But if that is why they are now suggesting that I not use the placeableShader is because the placeable production
is not small in nature?? That doesn't remove the fact that they've already told me that the placeable production needs to have snow/frost applied to it. So, I suppose I'm not 100% sure. I don't really see why it isn't OK to use the placeableShader if the placeable production isn't really a building